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Post by skye aka tweety on Feb 10, 2005 16:35:08 GMT -5
HI just wondering if any know how long it takes after using any benzos before any withdrawls would occur?for example,if i used 5 valuims on a regular bsis for a few years weekly,then couldnt recieve anymore,when would the withdrawls start? skye aka tweety
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Post by robinhoodlym on Feb 11, 2005 10:09:04 GMT -5
well, believe it or not, probably up towards 4-7 days - why? the half life of valium gets stored up... lets say the half life of valium is like 8-10 hours, well, on top of that you take other prior to it going out of your system, so the half life is longer and longer... you might even go up toward about 9 days... I did not really have horrible withdrawal even while I was tapering, my guess, cuz my taper was faster then the previous half life stored up... but after I was done taking my smallest dose, .25, full blown w/d hit me in 3 days, but if you c/t off of 5 mg of valium, you might hit about a week b4 you hit that wall
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Post by skye aka tweety on Feb 11, 2005 11:40:58 GMT -5
The reason i was asking ,is b cuz ,i do know valuim stays in your system along time,even taking one 10 mg valuim can stay hidden in fat cells,for example ,a friend whom passed away, from at first unknown causes,had been taking valuims for years but within that last year he tappered and didnt do any for approximatly 6 months.When the autopsy was done there were traces of valuim,i said i know ive also heard of people on mmt and they have taken 1 10 mg valuim and its taken some approximatly i month for a clean uurine!,so thats why i was wondering if its still in the fat cells or your system for that length is it still working on the system?...thanks skye!a ka tweety
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Post by codependentLPN on Feb 12, 2005 23:12:28 GMT -5
Hello! I was wondering...my fiance is on a 2-3 week tapering dose (currently 120 mg)Methadone-will be going down again in a few days to 110). He 'ran out' of his last Valiums in early Jan. He's been doing pretty good b/t then & now, but over the past week became nauseated & had bad heartburn, along with his severe lack of appetite as usual. So does anyone know if this could be a delayed response to stopping the valium, or could it be from the tapering of the methadone?? By the way, he finally talked me into agreeing into getting back on the valium ( for which he creates all the reasons in the world why he 'needs' it, then always ends up taking more than prescribed. What do you think??
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Post by robinhoodlym on Feb 13, 2005 3:21:47 GMT -5
well it aint the methadone, a 10mg drop from 120 to 110 is less then 10% - not much, he can do a 10mg drop every 2 - 3 weeks and probably wont feel "much" until around 60 mgs... as for the valium, yes, the half life of the stored up in his system can be causing some of the appetite loss, but if he has been off the valiums this long, he should stay off them since that is very minor if it is symptoms of valium w/d which I kind of doubt it is - since the w/d from benzos, severe w/d comes about with more anxiety, panic attacks, development of weird pyschological problems like phobias, paranoia -- he should not mix benzos with methadone, just cuz pple on methadone have a tendency to switch to the addiction of benzos and then when it is too late, the road back to health is hard, but once you go through the hard hard w/d of benzos and make it thru, relapse back on them is not common becuz the w/d is just so scary, no one - not even regular addicts want to go thru that more then once in their life... I mean, opiate w/d and methadone w/d is predictable, benzo withdrawal is torture, minute by excruciating minute...
also, mmt paitents have a tendency to not wake up after taking too many benzos... it potentiates the MMT or the MMT potentiates the benzos and we can overdose much more easily....
He is a con saying he needs more after he has been off them for a month, tell him to suck it up and stop playing the game - bad enoug he has to be on MMT for possibly the rest of his life, one crutch is enough - but two is not necessary imho
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Post by codependentLPN on Feb 13, 2005 17:51:45 GMT -5
Thank you for responding, I appreciate your input. I need all the info I can get, because no one else can answer it, and sometimes I feel like I'm being played for a fool, yet I'm trying hard not to do that,and I'm not so sure he does it intentionally because I'm pretty good at distinguishing fact from BS being a nurse, and from my experience with him so far. Anyway, he got back on the benzo's; says they relax his chest so he can quit feeling nauseated & vomiting, and get his appetite back.I hate having him be dually addicted, and I now hold the pills cuz he lets me, but he still has no idea how to differentiate b/t actual need vs. want, and I'm terrified of going thru all the crap I've been thru before with him either becoming a zombie with another personality, or else just plain sleepy all the time. To me, those things mean he needs the lowest benzo dose possible (if any). But then I get him telling me crap about his tolerance being high, the half-life is shorter r/t his past liver probs, etc.....What do I believe & not believe?  ? |
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Post by robinhoodlym on Feb 13, 2005 23:16:51 GMT -5
The problem is - is that he is playing you and like you say, he may have himself being so convinced that even he thinks it is the truth... Man, I was so so like that too! Man, I had it justified and anyone who did not understand my needs just could not understand what I was going through I thought...
Look, I am not preaching against MMT - it is a lifesaver, I am still on it and will be for a while longer - it is a crutch which like all crutches - help us walk... but benzos, after a point, i.e., no longer then 3 months, they are not recommended for long term maintenance use! The withdrawal is just too painful, I suggest you read my story on this board about my particular experience and that was just from moderate to heavy use for 5 months, hardly long enough I thought to warrant a 4 month withdrawal - w/d from benzos is like doing acid with on methamphetamines... it is intense and unpredictable.... Also, I suggest - suggest only you don't hold his pills -- you are gradually getting into the role as an enabler... let him go - you can't prevent him from doing hurt by holding his pills, only by hopefully educating him, but I doubt it, usually - and sadly, these things have to run their course - drug addicts like us are hard headed. I remember the clear warning too about the benzo w/d from my mom, also an RN that worked for 25 years in a detox clinic, you would have thought I would have listen to her stories of people coming in to get detoxed from benzos, only to leave, still addicted but the insurance runs out after 6 days....
Another couple things that might help you relate to his thinking if his and mine might have similarities... after about a year and a half of being stable on benzos, I missed "getting hihg" obviously, I missed the opiate high but being on methadone, we can't get that - we typically don't like uppers like coke, speed, or others so we stick with booze and tranquilizers... oh, we get sick of getting drunk - I mean, it is hard to do that and get away with it, but valium, xanax, booze in a pill is great - a ok substitute since we no longer have the ability to get high on our first choice of drug... so our mind will invent reasons to need it - we develop anxiety disorders to justify its use, or honest to god at one point have anxiety at one point - thus need it for a few months... but longer is not necessary..
If he is saying he needs valium for his nasuea, I doubt it, never heard of that as a valium w/d part and if it is, no big deal, that is minor and go with it!! compared to the other w/d it can bring, I would have traded puking my guts out vs. insanity of benzo w/d any day... and droppin gon 10mg from 120 to 110 - unlikely... maybe there is something else causing his nasuea, some other condition worth looking into? If he is within his first 2 -3 months of methadone, then nausea is normal, but it quickly goes away w/ continued treatment.
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Post by codependentLPN on Feb 14, 2005 0:08:16 GMT -5
No, he's been on MMT since '03. And I was mistaken-he's on 110 now-about to drop to 100 on Tues. Funny, he hates being a slave to the clinic, and hates being addicted, but this has kept him 'clean' from opiates on the street, and prescribed. He actually says he wants to switch to Buprenorphine or go to Oxycontin again & do it right, but I have reservations about the Oxy thing-I mean, he's done it all, so why now does he think he'd do right & how can I trust him to?? Yes, I also agree that the mmt is a crutch, I didn't believe in it at first, but instead of going back to a lifestyle of heroin or in another cycle with legit meds, I thought it might be best for him at the time since it's so structured. He only planned on being on for about 1-2 years & here we are, but I'm glad he's tapering anyway. Maybe eventually he can get his mind, body, libido, etc. back!! As for holding the valium, he did better when I dispensed, but the next time when he did, he took 60 in only about 1&1/2 -2 weeks and about was almost dead. I'm not going thru that again. So we both agree that this is the best way because when the addiction kicks in, he can't control it, but I can. Know what I mean??But still, I think that 5mg valium once a day if that is plenty, but I'll never get him to realize it. Right now, he can't justify it to me cuz he doesn't eat much more than he did before he started feeling sick this past week, and now he spends less awake time than ever. He's been up only 2 hrs twice today, and the valium seems to change his personality. The sweet, caring, understanding, open, talk-about-anything man I know is gone for now. Is there any way to get him to understand how this affects me (or the relationship) ? I know only he can do something about this, but what should I do in the meantime? He knows this kills me, but it keeps happening, and he doesn't want to lose me & I don't want to leave him or give up on him like everyone else, because he is really a great person.What do I do?? What did your wife do?? This man is 45, I'm 35 & he's done everything under the sun drug-wise (like you, mostly always downers). He overcame alcohol dep, doesn't drink anymore, so why can't or won't he do this? Why does he just keep switching?? He insists the valium is not enough to get a high, but it sure does mellow him out & get him sleepy. Believe it or not, when his GI dr found no probs, he recommended to keep on taking nexium & valium if it 'relaxes his throat' enough to keep the reflux calm. He told us "keep doing whatever works"so that was all he needed to hear I guess. No, he's never had bad anxiety from w/d from it a month ago, in fact, he seemed to have no real bad effects!! As a nurse I'm confused & concerned, but I tend to think most of it is psycosomatic. He does believe it works for every reason in the book, but I see no decrease in his symptoms when he's on it. It just puts him to sleep so the problems don't bother him enough to dwell on it. Still, what am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to go on & act like nothing is wrong? What does it actually take for him to realize? ?? |
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Post by robinhoodlym on Feb 14, 2005 13:49:34 GMT -5
Hi there - I am reading this and will give you some honest answers that may be hard to hear, you may not want to take action on them now, but you probably will eventually if you follow your continued path... I don't know and understand why some woman think they can "control" or change their man for the better - i.e. you holding the drugs "He does better when I control them" you say. How can you make him see the benefits of getting off the Valium?? I am not sure you can... It requires a bottom - for me it was loosing yet my third and last job I had and knowing my family was about to walk out on me... and once I started going thru the painful benzo withdrawal, it strengthened me - to not ever get myself in that position again -- it is so unlike opiate withdrawal which is painful but predictable, you can do that a thousand times, benzo withdrawal is severe, scary and usually done once. But it sounds like he may not undergo that since his dose maybe low enough thanks to you... Thanks to you he may not have hit his bottom, thanks to you he may still be alive, thanks to you, the miracle for him has yet to happen... Maybe he needs to loose everything to see what his addiction is doing. I am stating about the benzo addiction. That is at the forefront here... Don't worry about him tapering from Methadone yet... I couldn't help but chuckle when he wanted to go back on the Oxy thinking he could do it right this time. Sure, it also gets you high when methadone doesn't. You know what the definition of insanity is? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. The insanity of addiction. The worse part is, we can sell that idea to others, thus we sicken them too. However, MMT is the least of his problems. Benzos are nasty.... If he can't quit just by cold turkey, there is a good benzo taper schedule I ccan send you. Also research the harmfulness of benzos... It does create calcium channels on the neurons preventing them from firing too much - causes the numbness... when you go through withdrawal, these break off causing rapid firing of the neurons which leads to anxiety, seizures, phobias, etc.... MMT is really not his problem... and if he is dosed correctly, you cannot distinguish a MMT person from a normal person. But you sure notice a difference when he is on benzos, don't you? Have you told him? Have you told him that the selfishness he exhbitis is killing you? Have you told him his unwillingness to want recovery from his own disease may cause you to leave him? No, he's been on MMT since '03. And I was mistaken-he's on 110 now-about to drop to 100 on Tues. Funny, he hates being a slave to the clinic, and hates being addicted, but this has kept him 'clean' from opiates on the street, and prescribed. He actually says he wants to switch to Buprenorphine or go to Oxycontin again & do it right, but I have reservations about the Oxy thing-I mean, he's done it all, so why now does he think he'd do right & how can I trust him to?? Yes, I also agree that the mmt is a crutch, I didn't believe in it at first, but instead of going back to a lifestyle of heroin or in another cycle with legit meds, I thought it might be best for him at the time since it's so structured. He only planned on being on for about 1-2 years & here we are, but I'm glad he's tapering anyway. Maybe eventually he can get his mind, body, libido, etc. back!! As for holding the valium, he did better when I dispensed, but the next time when he did, he took 60 in only about 1&1/2 -2 weeks and about was almost dead. I'm not going thru that again. So we both agree that this is the best way because when the addiction kicks in, he can't control it, but I can. Know what I mean??But still, I think that 5mg valium once a day if that is plenty, but I'll never get him to realize it. Right now, he can't justify it to me cuz he doesn't eat much more than he did before he started feeling sick this past week, and now he spends less awake time than ever. He's been up only 2 hrs twice today, and the valium seems to change his personality. The sweet, caring, understanding, open, talk-about-anything man I know is gone for now. Is there any way to get him to understand how this affects me (or the relationship) ? I know only he can do something about this, but what should I do in the meantime? He knows this kills me, but it keeps happening, and he doesn't want to lose me & I don't want to leave him or give up on him like everyone else, because he is really a great person.What do I do?? What did your wife do?? This man is 45, I'm 35 & he's done everything under the sun drug-wise (like you, mostly always downers). He overcame alcohol dep, doesn't drink anymore, so why can't or won't he do this? Why does he just keep switching?? He insists the valium is not enough to get a high, but it sure does mellow him out & get him sleepy. Believe it or not, when his GI dr found no probs, he recommended to keep on taking nexium & valium if it 'relaxes his throat' enough to keep the reflux calm. He told us "keep doing whatever works"so that was all he needed to hear I guess. No, he's never had bad anxiety from w/d from it a month ago, in fact, he seemed to have no real bad effects!! As a nurse I'm confused & concerned, but I tend to think most of it is psycosomatic. He does believe it works for every reason in the book, but I see no decrease in his symptoms when he's on it. It just puts him to sleep so the problems don't bother him enough to dwell on it. Still, what am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to go on & act like nothing is wrong? What does it actually take for him to realize? ?? |
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Post by skye aka tweety on Feb 14, 2005 14:49:25 GMT -5
Hi coppen...I just wanted to add ,that by you holding his valuims as robins mentioned can cause many things to happen to him...I wnt through w/d really horribly a few times each of those horribles times i went to the extreme w/d of taking sezouirs,oh what a nightmare,you wouldnt want to see a human being go through a sezouir ,never mind a loved one,its awful..so pls be careful in holding onto his percriptions,it may sound like your controlling him on a schedule ,yet you could be sending him out to the streets behind your back ,with him taking way more, as he may think you wont give up what he needs,so pls just get a proper scheudule from robin and get this done the right way or from a physican...,it may be doing more harm then good,you can also read my seziour stories,they werent fun....skye !aka tweety
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Post by codependentLPN on Feb 14, 2005 21:30:25 GMT -5
Thank you both for your honesty. That's all I want from him too though (sounds simple enough). Today was a horrible day-it was our 2-year anniv. & he gave me the (false) hope that "tomorrow I'll try not to take any", but what happened?, He asked for one as soon as he got up (6am-for his 'heartburn/burning in his chest'), so I gave it to him.He then went back to sleep, and when he got up at 12, he asked for another & when I refused, we argued instead--but he won. He got another one, this time for his 'back spasming'. I got so hurt, mad, etc, that I threw the bottle at him & yelled Happy V/day & Happy Anniv!! So now he has them back in his 'control'.  (It's funny, he would accuse me of just trying to control him, etc. too, but the thing is, I'm not the kind of person who is a control freak or gets off on controlling things. Seriously, I honestly thought that I could help him when the addictive behavior kicks in since he seems to lose all rational thinking. I mean, it seemed to me that I could be the one to be strong enough--ya know....say if someone who couldn't swim was drowning; you wouldn't send in another tired, weak, non-swimmer to help him, right? But after reading your responses I see that there is nothing I can do, and that makes me feel so helpless-being in love with him AND being a nurse by trade!! But this is why I want to talk to people who have lived it themselves-I want to understand where you all are coming from. I don't find any help in "families of", because I already know how that feels-I live it every day. I just want to understand the best I can. Yes--I'd love some info on how to do a taper for whenever HE brings it up. Let me ask you this, now that he has his pills and he knows how I feel & saw me cry my heart out today, and fears I might want to leave, what do I do?? I love him too much to turn my back on him, but I need to know how to even act/interact while he's like this. Does the fact that I stay with him "enable" him, or send the message that it's ok??PLEASE HELP ME. I feel so awful. I feel like this addiction has finally won, when I used to have the energy to 'fight it'.  |
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Post by robinhoodlym on Feb 14, 2005 22:09:47 GMT -5
I know those "families of": seem too harsh, and you don't want to throw out the fleas with the dog etc.. but the analogy is not correct... Ultamatum's when acted on, and not just threatened are sometimes useful for the addict to arrive at his/her bottom... and you must confront the reality of really having to leave him - LOVE IS NOT ENOUGH TO CONTINUE WITH AN ADDICT - To continue to live with an addict that does not want to get better just sends the message that it is not a big deal - he minimizes the problem and thinks it is acceptable behavior. I am glad you gave the pills back to him - he will be out soon. You wanted to cut him off at the pass and tell his dr. I don't know, I wouldn't but then again, I wouldn't stay with him if he did not want to get help. He has to get the desire to want to get and stay clean... He is lacking that right now. You leaving him might be the key... Is he working? are you supporting him? Sleeping through till noon each day? what type of life is that? Meanwhile, sounds like you are a working woman... I remember giving my cigarettes for my wife to hold...and to give me one every 3 hours or so.... sooner or later, I would ask for the pack back but that wouldn't stop me from trying it over and over... the insanity - I don't do that anymore, nor do I make promises to quit smoking either... He sounds like he might be at a real good spot - in that he is not taking too many benzos to go into a residential detox clinic.. the bad thing is they will have to take him off of methadone too - though I don't agree with that, it might work.... look into a 30 day treatment so he can kick the benzos, and maybe as an added benefit to kick the methadone - but primarily the benzos... if he wants back on the emthadone after treatment, tell him fine, but not benzos since that makes him into a zombie... also, continue to tell him how worthless he is on benzos... Acid reflux back aches cured with valium? what a crock... muscle spasm arent treated with valium - actually they have proved their is nothing that is truly considered a muscle relaxer... no pill actually causes muscles to loosen... its all in his mind of addiction.... I hate addicts like me somtimes, we take people for rides... I hate what he is doing since I did the same thing... |
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Post by codependentLPN on Feb 14, 2005 22:25:24 GMT -5
After this throwing the pills at him this afternoon I told him he made his choice, then suggested he find another place to live because this is too hard on me & I can't & don't have to deal with it anymore. Then all day (for the few hours he was awake), whenever he tried holding my hand like we always do, I wouldn't. This all hit him very hard, and he kept saying what a failure & piece of s*** he is, etc. And he realized it by the tears in my eyes all day & look on my face.I even rejected his v/day/anniv gifts saying I wasn't in the mood/was numb (true).So he's now been in bed since 3:30. I guess that's what I'll have to do is detach-as painful for BOTH of us as it is, & I don't want anyone else but him, but he KNOWS what choices he has.PLease tell me WHAT your wife did with you?? Why didn't she leave? How did she act???I don't want to lose him & vice versa. By the way, I only work 2 12hr shifts a week so we have alot of together time, if you wanna call it that. He's on disability.
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Post by skye aka tweety on Feb 15, 2005 11:41:52 GMT -5
Th reasons for him stayin in bed is that nessasary?i mean he must of gone out and got v-day gifts as youve mentioned...
Its called tough love sweetie, robin is so right and we need it visa versa,at times in our own lives to keep or get ourselves in check,i mean why if he cant he take something elese for heartburn,why should it be a valuim?,ive never actualy heard of taking valuims for heartburn but ya never know!!!!plz really think about this do not give in!,do not be his nurse!,be his parnter..it seems he may think of you regardless if its your trade or not a type of nursing him into deeper addiction, by this type of behavouir,its a disesase!but if you put up some guildlines and not be at his every beck and call,it might be a start!,
I will say though communication means alot ,good true blue deep down honest communication,not the silent tx,not yelling, honest to good ness find out the root coumminication...then steps have to be taken on a taper svhedule without any blame games going on...this can be done but depending on how much your willing ,as well as he is willing to know how serouis you are...talk,talk,talk...give each other space ,find something for him to doother then sleep all day!...i hope this is helped...if any more questins feel free to ask away...skye aka tweety
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Post by robinhoodlym on Feb 15, 2005 13:33:37 GMT -5
Wow, first of all, I am proud of what you have done. You have actually taken to heart these suggestions and after consideration, acted upon them. His reaction of self-pity is a reflection and just validating what he always suspected. In that case you still have to be firm - point out that 1) his good qualities he has when he is clean 2) the bad qualities he has when using benzos, 3) that it is a disease, and he is not at fault for having it but HE IS RESPONSIBLE for dealing with it. Like Tweety said, honest communication w/out the yelling after the intial threatening you have done is important. Make sure he knows he is walking a tight rope. Tell him you are not being controlling, but you just don't want to spend your whole life with a junky when you know how good he can be... Sit him down, tell him he needs to be balls out honest with himself, that these excuses for needing valiums aren't worth loosing you. Upset stomach? take Prilosec. Back Aches? Have him increase his methadone dose.. that's right, usually during benzo w/d he might want to go up 10 - 20% on his dose ... Be supportive with him on his MMT but not benzo usage. The MMT is actually keeping him off the street or doing illegal activities and curbing his cravings... what happens is, drug users like us miss getting high after being on methadone for a while. Even if we had our opiate of choice, it won't work due to the block effect (we all tried using the first month or two after starting mmT on to realize it was a waste of money.) My wife was at the point of leaving - sure she had threatened 100 times before, each time she did, I cleaned up for a while, and then relapsed but with different drugs prior to MMT - so after she founds out about the benzos, I felt she meant it - she was unaware of my addiction beleive it or not and when I told her, she was hurt that I was driving myself and my family around while on drugs, risking their lives, risking my freedom by doing certain illegal things to get scripts, etc... She went through a lot of hurt and when I went into the hospital (which was a waste of time by the way) I was not for sure if she would continue with me... words out of my mouth had no meaning, but once she saw the actions - i.e. - I was actually sticking to it, she came back... and then after a month when my taper was done, the hard part came - the withdrawal - on zero - and the next 4 months she was my shoulder to hang on to during the weirdest roller coaster ride of my life - now I am hoping you can avoid that part... I don't know his using history and he only knows what his using history is... once he is honest to you, himself and me, and he wants to quit, we can suggest a plan of action to start a taper. And let him handle the pill during the taper and just count them to make sure he has not taken more then he has.. but don't hide them... I did not deviate from my taper at all... it was weird, I wanted it so bad.... I would continue to be a little cold towards him during certain situations like when he complains about these pains and you know where it is going but encourage him to do this so you can stay together for life... I am emailing you a link to some information regarding benzos and a taper... After this throwing the pills at him this afternoon I told him he made his choice, then suggested he find another place to live because this is too hard on me & I can't & don't have to deal with it anymore. Then all day (for the few hours he was awake), whenever he tried holding my hand like we always do, I wouldn't. This all hit him very hard, and he kept saying what a failure & piece of s*** he is, etc. And he realized it by the tears in my eyes all day & look on my face.I even rejected his v/day/anniv gifts saying I wasn't in the mood/was numb (true).So he's now been in bed since 3:30. I guess that's what I'll have to do is detach-as painful for BOTH of us as it is, & I don't want anyone else but him, but he KNOWS what choices he has.PLease tell me WHAT your wife did with you?? Why didn't she leave? How did she act???I don't want to lose him & vice versa. By the way, I only work 2 12hr shifts a week so we have alot of together time, if you wanna call it that. He's on disability. |
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(It's funny, he would accuse me of just trying to control him, etc. too, but the thing is, I'm not the kind of person who is a control freak or gets off on controlling things. Seriously, I honestly thought that I could help him when the addictive behavior kicks in since he seems to lose all rational thinking. I mean, it seemed to me that I could be the one to be strong enough--ya know....say if someone who couldn't swim was drowning; you wouldn't send in another tired, weak, non-swimmer to help him, right? But after reading your responses I see that there is nothing I can do, and that makes me feel so helpless-being in love with him AND being a nurse by trade!! But this is why I want to talk to people who have lived it themselves-I want to understand where you all are coming from. I don't find any help in "families of", because I already know how that feels-I live it every day. I just want to understand the best I can. Yes--I'd love some info on how to do a taper for whenever HE brings it up. Let me ask you this, now that he has his pills and he knows how I feel & saw me cry my heart out today, and fears I might want to leave, what do I do?? I love him too much to turn my back on him, but I need to know how to even act/interact while he's like this. Does the fact that I stay with him "enable" him, or send the message that it's ok??PLEASE HELP ME. I feel so awful. I feel like this addiction has finally won, when I used to have the energy to 'fight it'. 